Contractor Insurance and Surplus Lines with Doug Wenz

Doug Wenz: Thank you for having me.

Ben: The just to give you some background, I was I I realized I didn't really know much about what independent agents do in the US and they still account for a huge amount of premium. So that's why I started this podcast. Can we kick it off with you just introducing yourself?

Doug Wenz: Yeah, so I Doug Wenz. I am president at Associated Insurance ⁓ in Plainville, Connecticut. I've been in the industry since two thousand seventeen I got licensed. and I've in sales for I don't know, I don't know, it's probably the past fifteen years now. ⁓

Ben: Well the most common lines of business that you serve.

Doug Wenz: mainly so I'm I mainly deal with contractors, but you know, it's funny. You ask that question, I read and I I'm reading a lot of stuff on LinkedIn, especially with tech coming in. Everybody's wants a niche down. Generalists is kinda gonna be a thing of the past, right? But so I do I am a generalist just because I truly think that risk works the same way. I just think from a marketing and branding aspect, then that's why you should niche down. But So I'm pretty much general. So I deal with everything, but I just do I swim in the contractor space a lot, but I do have business pretty much all over ⁓ because I I truly believe it works all the same way.

Ben: How did you find your way into insurance?

Doug Wenz: Whew, I had a claim on my car. So I had lightning struck my car. Believe it or not, I know it's supposed to be they're grounded, right? So I was sleeping. I'll never forget I woke up, it sounded like a bomb went off. My ex-wife crying hysterically. And went out and like ⁓ a of things were fried. Like the wife the Wi-Fi wasn't working or power you know, like a lot of things were out. So the next day I had to go to a softball tournament ⁓ and drove there and I c on the way back car died completely. So I I put I put in a claim with Geico and initially were ⁓ going back and forth, you know, it's lightning, they couldn't find the exit, whatever they were trying to say back then. Yeah, I ended up getting them to cover it, ⁓ it was a reimbursement, like the way that they were paying out the claim. And I'll never forget I went to I had to fight for that, and then I went to go pick up the check, and they tried not to give me the check at the Geico office. I was so ⁓ And I was in a B and I group at the time and I told the story in the B and I group and there was a insurance producer at Bering Star Insurance, he was doing personalized, and we sat down, we met, he wrote my insurance and re he recruited me into the business, and that was the end of it. Thank God for that lightning, I'll tell ya. ⁓ ⁓

Ben: Are you working with Geico now?

Doug Wenz: ⁓ no, no, not yet. I mean I know that they're they're coming into the independent space. I th we have them, I just I just haven't personally worked.

Ben: How do you generally think about the carrier space? How many carriers are are you all appointed with?

Doug Wenz: So a lot. I mean, I don't know how many. a lot. It it's it now when you're asking that question, I'm I'm assuming like how do we manage it? Is that It's tough. And that's it's it's tough in a sense of it's a relationship business, you know, from the top to the bottom, right? So as somebody who's in the insurance space, as a producer, right, like you have to keep the insureds and the carriers and the marketing reps everybody happy. I think way that I look at it is ⁓ work for the carriers, right? Like I I'm representing them, although I do work for the insureds too. So it's an interesting, interesting job, right? ⁓ the way that I position it ⁓ ⁓ teach and educate my clients. insureds that I to present profitable business to carriers, ⁓ and I can do that, then they're gonna get a better rate, and then they're gonna take me more seriously, hence creating more leverage in the market. So ⁓ it depends on what I have and how I handle it with the rep. And I try to dedicately handle my relationships just to make sure that if I need something, they know when I'm bringing it to them, it's going to get done, right? Like I don't I try not to waste anybody's time. ⁓ It tough though, because it's gonna happen. Right, like I'm not one of those producers who thinks that it should just go out to every single market every time. I don't think that's a waste of time.

Ben: Can you walk me through what your average day looks like as a producer?

Doug Wenz: Huh God man. so I typically ⁓ won't schedule any meetings, I or I don't like to before eleven AM. I to try to so in morning I wake up, it's like five thirty, I do all my meditation, my wife thinks I'm crazy. and get the kids off to school. And then from about like nine to eleven, I just I'm on the phone, like catching up with some people, doing some busy work, some emails, and then by eleven I just I have meetings just about all day. ⁓ whether it be phone calls that are scheduled, you know, things like this, new client meetings, Whatever, but and it's chaos, right? It's just utter chaos. That's why, you know, the whole revolution with AI is coming in the industry.

Ben: How do you find the prospects you have conversations with, or how do they find you?

Doug Wenz: So I'm I'm interesting. I'm very different and I I think that's why I'm not not a fit in the corporate structure. But my main thing has always been to just network and find a way to create value for other people and solve problems. I two years ago, I ⁓ my career changed when I actually lost an account. ⁓ So I I wrote an account that had a a total loss. ⁓ They non renewed. ⁓ I up fixing the account, ⁓ wrote and I was I had no help at the time and it was one of the first commercial accounts I'd written. I had honestly had no business even working on it, but I ended getting it done and then ten days later they ⁓ They went or they saved like thirty or forty thousand dollars with a different carrier and a direct writer that I didn't have. So it was fine. I helped them do it, but from there I just started networking differently. And I just I from I learned there instead of going after more insureds, I was just gonna go after them. they obviously have a specific need. If they can only write with one carrier, then ⁓ have another need, right? Like their clients at some point are gonna get non-renewed.

Ben: Mm-hmm.

Doug Wenz: Have rate increases, be unhappy, or they're gonna get a referral they can't write. So that was my intention. And I just call I just cold called them and they became my biggest referral source. And I've now become, you those. And when I say referral source, I'm just a resource, right? Like you know, and I have to position it that way because I posted something on LinkedIn ⁓ and got I got backlash from and now ⁓ somebody's sending me business anymore. And it's because the carrier gets offended.

Ben: Also.

Doug Wenz: And that's what I I don't I dislike that in the industry, right? So I'm just a resource for producers that need help, right? And then I have some other referral sources, but I don't hunt for business at all. I'm blessed in that way, like where my phone just rings and it's and I'm busy. It's been great.

Ben: Let's someone calls you up and they're like, Hey, you know, this insured Mark in referred y referred me to you, Doug. I need homeowners insurance, I need a quote. ASAP. What what would you do from that call onwards?

Doug Wenz: So it depends. My p it was a lot different where I was and I just you know, I just made a transition to this ⁓ this new it this new agency. One of the things I was trying to do was get away from that because it and that's a that's a t that was a tough thing for me too. started in personal lines, so like my background is was in personal lines and I like helping people. I like when somebody calls me and they're buying a new house or they're a first time home buyer, ⁓ are spending too much money they think on their home. Like I get it. I'm I'm d I'm an American paying bills too. So I feel for them, right? So I want to help. So tough. Now like I realized and learned and it was a tough, it was a hard lesson for me to learn that dealing with that stuff for me, it was tough. I had to start passing that off because ⁓ was wasting a lot of time. And that's and and it's even saying that I feel bad, right? Because I'm for me, I'm like, I'm saying that person's a waste of time. But the reality is that just needs to get sent in and Internally for somebody to handle, or that's where technology needs to come into play. And that's been my whole thing, right? Like you have Next Insurance Ergo Next to get to commercial. They're doing a very similar thing, right? Where they're allowing, you know, clients can go on and quote and buy in themselves, right? So, you know, there's just those nuances, like, where's the ENO land? But at the end of the day, that homeowner that's calling me, that process there, I'm probably just sending, I'm sending that internally. I'm gonna take some of the information, create the rapport with them, talk to them. A little bit about the process and just transparency. I think it's the biggest thing. And as long as you set the expectation, it really doesn't matter.

Ben: It sounds like it's just not necessarily worth your time because of your focus being slightly further upmarket, you know, commercial accounts.

Doug Wenz: Well the problem is in the industry, look at personalized. Let's look at the break down a thousand dollar annual premium. Split that up. I mean, ⁓ a carrier is gonna pay an agency fifteen percent, okay, so fifteen percent so and then if a producer is gonna get forty percent of business, that's what you know Then the house, they take what? And then who's servicing it? How much are they paying? So at the end of the day, a thousand dollar policy really not making any money on it. And as a producer, doesn't make any sense for me to even put an hour into it. You know, so that's where and that's a problem. That's a compound problem, right? Because think about that. Like if that's what I'm saying on one policy, that's what everybody's thinking. And so what's happening is all that stuff's just getting outsourced. And because it's getting outsourced, it's not getting serviced the right way. It's just it literally is a compound.

Ben: I asked you what you would do if someone called you and asked for a homeowners quote and then you were like, That's a problem. So what what actually is the problem? Like what what is the thing that takes you

Doug Wenz: The education to the people, to the to the to the insureds, to the end user. They're not educated. The pro and that and that go and that's everything. That's everywhere.

Ben: And the carrier connectivity the second part. So the education is the biggest problem and then the second part is getting the quote. It also takes you time, is that right?

Doug Wenz: ⁓ we're talking about specifically personal or commercial?

Ben: Yeah, the homeowners example I just gave.

Doug Wenz: Yeah, I mean the homeowners so in that case, so even where I was for the last five years. My setup there, because I was I was doing a lot of it, I would have I had somebody who was a virtual assistant that would just quote it on the radar for me, get it back to me, and then I would go in and you know apply whatever changes, be on the phone with the insured, you know, verifying coverages, go through all that, you know, just to make sure it's done the right way. But that's where, that's why I said tech can come into play, because you can cut out that me to to ⁓ assistant back to. me where it can literally just be instantaneous and to me or whomever that is, you know, where it's gonna speed up that process is where I think it starts or should start. ⁓

Ben: And and what's the type of insurance where it becomes interesting, where your instant reaction wouldn't be, this is a tough one but your reaction would be, Great, I'm happy to invite that client in and have a longer conversation with them.

Doug Wenz: So I think it so insurance and myself, I like the hard and the tough. I found that and when I say hard and tough and we're if we're still talking about homeowners, don't want ⁓ I don't I wouldn't take a hard and tough homeowners like a resident. I wouldn't take that. ⁓ ⁓ would like I like the risky commercial business because ⁓ a lot there's not a lot of competition. ⁓ is comfortable doing it. and I'm comfortable getting my hands dirty, ⁓ looking the forms, reading the coverages and all that. So I like when somebody has a very risky, risky business.

Ben: Yeah.

Doug Wenz: Yeah.

Ben: Can you walk me through ⁓ your Let's say a client comes in, you you know, sit down with them, you get all the data that you require. What are the what are the next steps?

Doug Wenz: Well, it depends and that depends on how ⁓ what I what I got from them as far as data, right? 'Cause I think there's a you know, we're a lot of people are trying to solve the pain points in the commercial industry. And I think, you know, we've talked about the homeowner specifically, but and that's mainly where commercial clients I'm only talking to now. And I think the the biggest pain point I have in that whole process is the supplementals and the loss runs. Those are the two biggest pain points I have. The the biggest one though is at sometimes the loss runs and It's so funny because a lot of people don't complain about it like I do. maybe I just complain more than ⁓ lot of people, but I of my pet peeves ⁓ is I get everything out. So like even if I'm manually filling stuff out, like a supplemental goes and all that stuff, ⁓ I have the insured sign a letter and I can send it myself. ⁓ But ⁓ I to wait and I have to follow up with the insured again to see if they got The loss runs and did that get sent? How do I verify that? I have no idea. They won't tell me. Nobody will because I didn't control the account. That's a nightmare, right? And so most of and the reason I think I run into that a lot is because my new business comes via referrals from where it comes and it's not controlled by me. Right. So I just think I'm always having to get that, get the loss runs there. And that's been a really, really, really, really big pain point. And I don't understand why carriers don't want to come together

Ben: Mm-hmm.

Doug Wenz: 'Cause if they did, would have more profitable business, a lot easier.

Ben: And when you say carriers come together like to have a standard for sharing lost runs or to have like a consolidated

Doug Wenz: Not a standard for share. I mean just a cent like a a central hub where the carrier should ⁓ be able to like They're communicating with whatever this hub is, right? And the loss runs are there, they should be immediate. If the client and the insured signs a letter requesting it be sent, or maybe the process needs to change because if the insured's requesting it, it needs to be immediate. And like people could argue, yeah, the insured could call the carrier, call the agent, you could do all these things. The reality is there's a lot of situations where you can't. Carrier is a surplus-line carrier, and there's three layers of it down. Like that, there's times you just can't do it. So, like, it's not as easy as people say.

Ben: What are the lines of business in the commercial space that you would net would do you would typically recommend when you're talking about things like loss runs? Is it general liability, workers' compensation, you know, is it is it those types of lines?

Doug Wenz: Well, so I have to get lost funds for everything. So you can't you you need you need five f you know, and most ⁓ five years. you know, or three or current value loss runs to in order to bind an account. You can sometimes, depending on the risk, get an indication. know, prior to losses, subject to, right? But at the end of the day, they're gonna need the loss runs, you know, to send out the binder to bind it ⁓ So it's I've had I've literally been had accounts where clients have paid, they've been waiting and we're just waiting on loss runs. ⁓ You and sitting there like three days and that's on ⁓ loss runs for some small policy they had for three months, two years ago. I'm like, what are we what like you know, I understand from a carrier's perspective, so I don't I'm not saying that they're wrong because it I think if I owned the company, I wanted to verify that I was gonna bring in profitable business, that would also be one of my things. I'm blaming is the system, right? Like it it's the poor insureds are in then a broken system.

Ben: How do you loss runs to the carriers?

Doug Wenz: Well, you say loss runs the c so my job would be like my flow ⁓ or would be I would ⁓ get letter signed from the insured in this case, send the ⁓ to or would be sending the letter to the carrier requesting loss runs. ⁓ And if didn't control the account, they would be sending it directly to the insured, and then the insured would have to send it back to me and then I would have to send it back to the carrier.

Ben: Yeah, that does sound like a tedious process. I I

Doug Wenz: It's crazy. And then ⁓ by the way, hold on. One I'll tell you one better here. So the Hartford now I and I love the Hartford, right? But Lost Run Pro is Is a service I've used and it's it like it's an open API, they just and they send a template letter out and it's a loss run letter. Not and listen, it's easy and they've done a nice job. The Hartford now, when you send the request, they won't send the loss runs now. Now they send a link to the insured. So the insured now has to click on the link, log in, and pull the lost runs. And Mike, you do you know how hard it is to get a contractor to do that? I would love to see the Hartford. come out and do that. Because it it at the at the end of the day, what blows my mind is as a company, why is it not the ease of the ease of doing business is the most important thing for the end user and nobody makes anything easy. Now some things should be hard, but that's not something that should be hard.

Ben: Well, I I guess it's hard because the carrier knows that if you're exporting Lost Runs you're shopping.

Doug Wenz: Right, but they but in that case, so in this case, that I can understand. But this isn't this isn't a case where somebody's leaving. Like I can understand that point. This is old loss runs. This is old loss runs from a policy that, you know, they dropped the client four years ago or two years ago or some case. Like that's where I run into more issues, believe it or not.

Ben: I was gonna ask you if you could wave a magic wand for a part of your workflow to work much better, to almost like be automated, what would you what would you choose? I'm hearing you say ⁓ lost runs is a really big pain point.

Doug Wenz: ⁓ it's just one it's just a pet peeve. I think the the data like get gathering data from the insured to the to f a full submission to the underwriter. It's the most important thing. And that's what everybody's striving for. Because if you can get a full submission, as a producer, I learned it the hard way, right? I used to send in like literally a chords that were barely filled in. And I would have underwriters just call me back like, I'm not, what is this? You know, I'm not going to work on it. And I learned the hard way that that's how you get to the bottom of the pile. So the tech can create a full submission. The sad thing is is that the education for the insureds, they don't know that. ⁓ know, like somebody could come to me and they have a business that's generating 10 million in revenue and they don't know if I'm gonna send in a full submission or not. So that's where I think the tech could come in and gather that data from the insured because that is ultimately ⁓ to create a better, cleaner, like program or an insurance policy, like structured the right way, covered the right way, and then ultimately more profitable business for the carrier on the back end.

Ben: Do you partner with colleagues on the marketing part of generating the quote?

Doug Wenz: So and I didn't for the last five years. I was doing most of it myself. where am we have ⁓ some people internally that help me out with the marketing.

Ben: Yeah, that's I think that's a common setup that I've seen across the board. ⁓ so they then end up going into the portals, typing the information in, retrieving the quotes, or in some instances maybe even emailing underwriters, you know, various different contacts at insurance companies or maybe even wholesalers. Do you work with wholesalers at all?

Doug Wenz: well, I that's a lot what I did when I was at the last firm. I think ⁓ why I was saying the the harder, riskier stuff. I got into the New York, you know, contractors and New York Labor Law and all that. So I worked with a lot of the brokerages, the ⁓ T and C R C and RPS.

Ben: Yeah, because they'll they'll just find a place to place the business in the end, right? Which might be harder if you're just running your own independent agency. Very interesting. If you reflect on the last nine years of you being an insurance, what is a part of insurance that is that you you you would be you would have been surprised by when you started? You know, s something that's very, very odd and out there and a lot of people probably don't know about insurance.

Doug Wenz: Yeah. Nobody so commercial insurance? Like when I nobody understands what I do. Like no no I'm serious, nobody on like I, my wife, nobody. And I it's funny I I and again, you could probably tell I I could talk for hours, I'm passionate about it. But I think the the one thing is that nobody really understands this contractual liability and risk transfer is ⁓ I I would never have if you would have told me in two thousand seventeen that I would have been talking about those things, understood the concept of it and be able to look at an operation and ask a few questions and then see the gaps in it, I would never ever ever ever have believed you but I think the the the like the hidden thing is is is exactly what we do and that's what I mean like the that's what I'm talking about with education right like the next generation coming in there's such an employee gap ⁓ the biggest piece of it

Ben: I think that's also the big value of a broker, right? And why a lot of these products will not go direct to consumer for a long time because you do just have to be deep in the subject matter. If someone asks you today, what do you do, Doug? How how do you how do you typically s describe it?

Doug Wenz: just say that I ⁓ ⁓ cover people's businesses, right? Like the, you know, I I could say I do workers comp and general liability, but nobody understands that, right? You know, and when I say insurance agent, people think home and auto. So which is fine because I could write that, but at the end of the day they don't truly understand it. And I think there's something to that. And I want to make that a point. Like I do think there's something to keeping a gate kept because I don't think, and that goes for a lot of industries, you know, but there also are some bad eggs in all industries and the a A lot of it though is not those people's faults. It's the sheer volume of work and the sales trainers that can't even train them. And I think that's really where, you know, I I feel bad for the end users because the the producers they're working with, if they're not trained right, it's really not their fault. It's just the poor system they're in.

Ben: Yeah. We were talking a little bit about carriers. Are there particular carriers you mentioned the Hartford, are there particular carriers that for you sort of rank at the top of the list that you would go to ⁓ more regularly maybe than others?

Doug Wenz: I think it's all relative, but I mean I I like travelers is is awesome. travelers all around just does a great job. I don't we don't have them here, but I had a really good working relationship Acadia. They were really good to work with. th but you as far as like the Hartford's great, Chubb's great, They're all really I mean, honestly, I could probably and I'm not gonna name them, so we're not gonna talk about it, but I could probably name the ones I don't like more. The ones I I've had I've had no I've had really good really good experiences. I think the marketing reps, I mean, those are the ones that you know, and they're out and about. They're the ones that make the carrier, make or break it most of the time.

Ben: You're the marketing reps of Charb who travel, you know, the country to meet with folks like yourself. You're thinking about the next ⁓ mm five to ten years and sort of where Doug's journey is gonna go. What what does success look like for you in the insurance space?

Doug Wenz: Yeah. Well, I think that's a good question, 'cause I've been trying to figure that out myself. I I don't know. I mean, we'll see where the tech and and and everything evolves. I think for me the biggest thing is I would like to educate and train the next generation. ⁓ I the lot of the things I've seen over the last couple of years, like and I've tr you know, interviewed for many, many, many corporate companies. I've and a lot of things I've seen, I just I don't know, I just question so, so much of it. know, and having going through the education system, it's a mess. So for me, the next five years, especially when it comes to insurance, I would like to try to create a training program to get the next generation in. Because at the end of the day, I like I have so many phone calls coming in from insureds and they all say the same thing. They're not they don't get a call back. They're not getting service. There's a complaint. And It's all day, every day. So it tells me that there's such a gap and there's a need. So that's what I'm gonna try to do.

Ben: Especially I think in the independent agent space, what I've seen a lot is because it's so much work producing the quote, it's so much work getting lost from, getting all the data in, right? That takes up so much time of someone who actually has a lot more expertise that they could deploy, you know, by educating or by yeah, like training. And I think yeah technology could probably play a huge role in really helping you re focus your time.

Doug Wenz: That's the biggest. That's and that's where for me like I was working on stuff and not, you know, going through with, you know, and looking out what everybody has. don't think right now, at least for me, ⁓ wouldn't be using it to to do all this quote compare stuff. I would simply be trying to use it to eliminate ⁓ marketing person on the front end for the salesperson. That's exactly because and that's where that's what I've been saying the whole time. Because if you think a good marketing person for a good producer, how much do they make a year? In a US Salary in the northeast? So if you create tech that eliminates that takes and now the other thing I always said too, ⁓ is if I'm a business owner and Ben's sitting with me and I'm gonna say, you know, Ben, I'm I'm signing with you, I'm good. I expect Ben to to know where you're going and to know where my insurance is going. I don't want Ben to have somebody else take it and go work on it and then send it back to you to now come to me to now explain somebody else's work. It just kind of asinine to me, right? And so I look at it like that, I'm like, all right, so tech comes in and now Ben sits with me. ⁓ Ben's working on it because tech eliminated all of that so Ben can do it. That's the way I've been looking at it and I think and honestly, that's the way it needs to go.

Ben: ⁓ How do you about choosing technology at the company you're at right now? Is it the I've I've I've hit heard several themes, right? ⁓ Certain brokerages will ⁓ whatever tools make producer most successful. Other brokerages will mandate things, right? Is is there how how do you about that space in your environment?

Doug Wenz: Wow. It's ⁓ I am is kind of I could they let me just do whatever. I mean, 'cause they all we we're trusting back and forth 'cause they know I don't just throw ⁓ information out there. But we so we only have Hawksoft right now and we're just at the point where, you know, ⁓ this agency's interesting here because they didn't really have much here. They've been acquiring for the last couple of years. So I'm actually their first salesperson and they're than the last. That I was at, but you know, the last firm that I was at, we had a we had a bunch of systems, and that was the problem. I hated it because, and believe it or not, after I left there, and I again I locked out of it, I didn't tell this is the first time I'm saying it. had access to agency Zoom for 30 days ⁓ I left the company, and I didn't have my email or anything. And I ⁓ I was just wondering how long it was because my face ID. ⁓ was hooked up to it. So think about this. So like that's so interesting to know. Now I didn't do anything malicious. We're buying the book. There's nothing bad happening. But knowing that, right, and having that information as just as an a any agency owner out there, right? Why would you use agency Zoom? I wouldn't feel safe. And so that's where I think tech is great, but at the same time needs to understand the limitations of things like the phone and other things because who knows what happens out there. Are your clients really safe? I don't know. So it's really it's gonna be really interesting. And so with them here, like we're gonna be looking into all that stuff and I think, you know, try to almost like a lot of people, build out something for the agency here because I think it's just with all the tools and everything out there, you could get it done that way now.

Ben: It's wild, like how I mean you and I have spoken about this, but how much easier it is to build things now. And it really calls into question a lot of these Zorzywave or Vertifort companies, right, that were very good at this one small thing, but it but like that very good at the one small thing tool can now be replicated by just building it yourself.

Doug Wenz: It's crazy. So I feel bad for some of the people. Like I I had talked on LinkedIn with some entrepreneurs, you know, like I'm sure you have, who have created products to do these little like you're talking about, these little specific things that can, you know, create efficiencies, right? But now it's I mean, you can build it s kinda easily like yourself.

Ben: You can just Yeah, the I think the hard part that like will just require some some deeper knowledge is getting the quotes. Because it really does vary by carrier, right? The not just the question set, but is it a portal? Is it a portal with like five through like five clicks? Or is it a portal that has like one really long question set? Is it, you know, an email address? Is it maybe a rater, right? Like those are those are all ways in which folks get quotes and Really standardizing that I think is still pr it's it's easier now than it was maybe two years ago, but it it it's still probably quite quite difficult.

Doug Wenz: I think the one thing it's kind of alarming too. I mean I realized so I ran a a just like twenty minutes like just with for ⁓ I think it was like fifteen producers on it yesterday. And I ran like a little course on utilizing you know, to help you as a producer. And one the things that I said that I thought would ⁓ and not common but I I don't know for me, like and I learned it. I didn't read to do this, but to who Hallucination check everything to have, you know, to when you're researching or you're using AI, at the end, it was funny. I learned this a hard way. I used to take I was taking things not at face value for clients, but just going through it and doing things. And then I caught it lying to me one time. I'll never forgetting. I was like fighting with it, I was arguing. And then after that, I remember looking it up and Googling like like AI lied to me and and learning that I should put a hallucination check at the end of everything. And it tells on itself. It'll tell me every time. And so, you know, ⁓ that being said, like I was reading a LinkedIn post and there was a lot of activity on this. And it was from somebody who's obviously very well known in the industry, and it was about life insurance. And they were using AI, and they were doing like a quote compare for life insurance, and they put one in and AI made up the entire second quote. And like he was ⁓ fine, like okay, but he was posting about it like as this warning to people. But I looked so I looked through it, which is great, because you should, but I looked through it, and not ⁓ ⁓ in there, not one comment, not anything about hallucinating nothing, nothing, and there was a thousands

Ben: Yeah.

Doug Wenz: of impressions on it. So an education problem. Right? ⁓ ⁓ I look at those things, the patterns in it, and like all I do I ⁓ I like through the lines, I'm looking at I'm like, why does nobody say, like, why is nobody talking about it? I mean I get it. It's not, it's not Anthropic's fault, right? But at the end of the day, like if I'm an insurance agent owner, I mean maybe it is. Maybe it is.

Ben: It is ⁓ it kind of is anthropometric's fault too, but they but they I think they just realize that it's better for them if they is a little bit of hallucination than if the tool just in certain cases doesn't work. Yeah, I mean people like to Yeah, I was about to say the same.

Doug Wenz: A hallucination is definitely good for them because it touches it touches it touches the reader emotionally. If I had that tool, I would do that all day. Yeah. I mean I'm not listen, they're playing chess. I'm no idiot. That's fine.

Ben: thank you so much for joining the podcast.

Doug Wenz: Yeah, no, thanks for having me. Appreciate it.