Organic Social Media Leads for Insurance Agencies with Robert Balan-Martin

[00:00] Robert, thank you. Thank you for coming on the podcast.

[00:02] My pleasure.

[00:02] Do you want to give a quick introduction on yourself?

[00:04] I'm Robert Martin. I own Gnome Insurance Services. I'd say a scratch agency I built.

[00:10] I sold my first book and now I'm in the process of starting to build a second one.

[00:15] I wear many hats because I also work with an aggregator and I've done some consulting on the

[00:20] marketing side of things for insurance agents who are having trouble in building online presence

[00:27] and getting leads.

[00:28] Like they'll go, they made one post, buy my insurance.

[00:31] No one pressed yes and gave me all their data.

[00:34] The internet doesn't work.

[00:35] I'm just going to keep phone dialing.

[00:37] I've helped people like that learn how to build rapport

[00:39] and relationships online occasionally.

[00:42] So I wear many hats, but yeah, that's all I do.

[00:44] What made you go into insurance?

[00:46] I had been doing, I went from being an actor

[00:48] to being kind of a salesperson, non-insurance,

[00:51] and I needed to find a way to kind of find a expertise.

[00:54] I knew there was money in niches and like findings, a specialty.

[00:59] So I went from selling vacuums to selling insurance.

[01:02] I luckily had a family member in insurance because I had three options I was looking at.

[01:07] I was like, it's going to be real estate, taxes, or insurance.

[01:10] I had a family member who had helped manage like captive commercial carrier products for years as an underwriter.

[01:17] I knew the understanding of some of the risk management terms.

[01:20] I was like, well, I got a head start here just because he worked from home at a time when a lot of people didn't.

[01:26] So I was like, I knew a lot of terms.

[01:27] I was like, okay, I'm going to take the one I have the head start in.

[01:30] What did he do?

[01:31] He was an underwriter at CNA for a long time and then a couple other insurance companies.

[01:37] But I had grown up hearing insurance terminology for like captive risk management around trucking and roofers.

[01:44] And I went straight headfirst into trucking insurance.

[01:48] And I didn't do great.

[01:50] I can't admit that fully, but I learned a lot.

[01:53] Once I got licensed, I think it was my first job.

[01:55] I cold-called agencies around my house.

[01:58] Yeah.

[01:58] This was in 2019.

[02:00] Found one who was willing to give me a shot, and I did not do well.

[02:03] I probably would have eventually, I like to think, but COVID messed up everything

[02:07] because it made it a very just weird time in commercial auto insurance.

[02:12] So then I bounced around.

[02:14] I got to try working for some insurtechs, and then I ended up doing,

[02:17] leaving insurance for a little bit to do software sales.

[02:21] And then I launched an agency Y doing software sales.

[02:24] And then I've just, it's been a, it's been a wild ride.

[02:26] The software sales adjacent to insurance?

[02:28] Yes.

[02:28] It was with a company called Guesty.

[02:30] They had a damage protection program.

[02:32] It was a warranty on people who run short-term rentals.

[02:35] So they hired me because of my insurance background, but it wasn't,

[02:39] they made sure for the longest time it was not an insurance product

[02:43] because they didn't want to deal with the red tape on it.

[02:45] It was a, if a guest breaks something, we collect this amount on stays and then we pay out to make sure the damage is paid for when they break a $200 TV.

[02:54] Stuff that wouldn't normally need a deductible on a traditional insurance plan.

[02:59] So they really liked my insurance background, but they were like, we don't need any of your licensing for tied up on anything.

[03:05] So feel free to use it if you want to.

[03:07] And I built a little digital, I built a work from home digital agency, the one that would normally get like eyes rolled at it.

[03:13] Like, oh, that's not going to do anything.

[03:15] The first book I built, I built on an aggregator. I used Agentero for market access and I did 300,000

[03:23] in new premium, probably really doing it as a more part-time focus when I was starting out.

[03:28] I scaled it. I got lots of clients who were, there was a lot of small premium. I noticed there was a

[03:33] gap. There's a lot of accounts that larger agencies don't even want to touch. They have a minimum

[03:38] premium in their head of where it's worth it because they have service costs, they have other

[03:42] costs. And there's the old saying of, would you rather write 10 $1,000 policies or one $10,000

[03:48] policies? A lot of agents use that mindset to brush off smaller accounts. I use some insure tech

[03:54] carriers and I was able to quote organically online really easily where I'd build funnels,

[04:01] generating thousand, $2,000 premium leads almost daily where they'd be binding and they'd go through

[04:07] a payment link because I realize if I get them used to taking phone calls, especially

[04:12] with the amount of people who don't want it to get on the phone anyway, it sets the expectation.

[04:16] But if I bind with them over Facebook Messenger, Instagram, my proudest one is right now has

[04:21] been Reddit and Snapchat where I've been like I've gotten deals done over it.

[04:25] I've collected all the info and these social platforms, most of them have decent encryptions

[04:29] and like I'm not taking payment info on them, which helps because I can send out a payment

[04:34] link with most of the new insure tech carriers.

[04:36] I built a niche there and then the aggregator I worked for offered me a job around the time I was considering refocusing.

[04:43] So I've shifted into an internal agency underwriting manager.

[04:47] I do have a couple, I do some deals here and there that I like that on my own book right now,

[04:51] I kind of get to keep my prize like favorite accounts and not worry too much.

[04:54] I'm learning a bit more on the legacy side of some of the carriers as well.

[04:58] Like I've gotten very familiar through my current role with the Hanover, Chubb, Travelers.

[05:03] So I'm very confident if I wanted to scale on much larger full time project, I could.

[05:08] But as I said, I am the part time agent that most people would have rolled their eyes at.

[05:12] But I made it work successfully for me and it fit into the life I was building and the opportunity.

[05:17] And yeah, it's been an interesting it's been a very wild ride.

[05:22] I jokingly post on social that I'm the hardest working agent after 11 p.m.

[05:27] because I have bound probably 15, 10 to 15% of my deals

[05:32] between 11 p.m. and 3 in the morning.

[05:34] Clients who have erratic schedules, contractors in particular.

[05:38] If you're willing to service them when they're available

[05:40] and some of the social media platforms show you when they're online,

[05:43] like they're doing scrolling, they're playing video games,

[05:46] they're venting, they're relaxing.

[05:48] I've got everything set up.

[05:49] Let me just touch base with them.

[05:50] And also this only works on social media

[05:52] because I know the telecommunications rules are different for texting.

[05:54] unless they're an active client.

[05:56] You have rules on when you can and can't.

[05:58] With social media, when you get them as friends,

[06:00] they've effectively given you consent to,

[06:02] hey, I can follow up technically under the rules

[06:05] as I had it explained to me.

[06:06] It created a really good,

[06:08] I'm servicing them where they are,

[06:10] when they need it,

[06:11] when they're available to be served.

[06:12] Nine to five, if you're a pressure washer,

[06:15] do in-house, a lawn care guy doing houses,

[06:17] you're not on your phone.

[06:17] You're doing hard labor out in the fields right now.

[06:20] Of course, you're not gonna respond

[06:21] to that nine to five window

[06:22] and that's part of the underserved finding people who just aren't getting a good experience.

[06:27] You give them a white glove experience, they'll refer everyone they know to you.

[06:32] And that's where it really picked up after about six months in,

[06:35] my outbound to inbound ratio shifted from like 90% outbound to like 30% outbound.

[06:41] I still get referrals from guys I sold a policy to with no service work three years ago

[06:47] because I made it a smooth five minute experience and I set expectations correctly.

[06:52] So is that kind of what you expected or did this all develop in that way?

[06:57] Definitely develop. I originally. All right. So the name Gnome Insurance, my plan. I came up with the idea kind of like loosely in the back of my head in 2022, a year before I actually launched.

[07:09] I found the aggregator. I thought about it. I was on the fence. I was like, I could sell so much branch home and auto insurance, branch the insurtech carrier.

[07:18] They had their reinsurance issues and their pricing.

[07:22] There was a reason they were beating State Farm Allstate and Farmers in the preferred zip codes and decimating the captives for just about a minute, I think.

[07:30] They were coming in a little too aggressive and they had to fix that.

[07:35] My original plan was I was going to sell them as almost like a captive independent almost.

[07:39] So it's like they're so affordable.

[07:40] It's so easy.

[07:42] It's going to go great.

[07:43] I was going to send garden gnomes to every home that I sold a policy to as my kind of thing.

[07:50] That was the concept for gnome insurance.

[07:52] Then the market changed and I was like, oh, I got to go commercial.

[07:56] I've done commercial auto, which is complicated.

[07:58] General liability at the end of the day is not nearly as a pain in the butt as doing the commercial auto side of accounts.

[08:04] I was like, okay.

[08:05] I found Coterie in November, I want to say of 2024.

[08:09] and then I realized how easy it was to quote, to bind.

[08:14] I started calling people and I'm collecting payment info,

[08:17] but then they had a feature called their Quote Snapshot.

[08:19] I think they did the best of all the programs

[08:21] and like insure tech carriers or programs.

[08:24] You can literally send them a payment link

[08:26] through text, through email, through app.

[08:29] It opens up, it has their info,

[08:31] they can put in their payment info,

[08:32] they bind on the spot, it emails them the COI,

[08:35] emails them the policy.

[08:37] And if they don't need service,

[08:38] if they're a residential contractor who doesn't need any COIs, I still have people who refer stuff

[08:43] to me from years back. Anyway, I built my first book and then I ended up selling it because I

[08:48] did have to decide if I wanted to build a service team. I explored virtual assistants, which all in

[08:53] all wasn't too bad. I just had really high standards. I know what I know now. I wouldn't

[08:58] have sold a book now, but I sold my first book I had built in the beginning of 2025 and I got a

[09:04] decent payout on it, which is nice, but I had unrealistic expectations on what I should be

[09:10] servicing people. I was thinking in my head, like a software person having spent too much time around

[09:16] that side of the industry, I got to get people COIs in like two, three hours, I got to turn around

[09:21] service same day, every day. If there's a delay, I got to call the underwriters and I got to prod

[09:27] them to like process the endorsement as fast as possible. I set an unrealistically high standard

[09:33] for myself. The people who ended up taking over, I think the service time went from probably closer

[09:38] to two to three business days, maybe three to five on a busy week. There wasn't some grand demise.

[09:45] The book, I had access to see parts of the data on the book and the health of it. Like,

[09:50] no, the book continued to function just well. There was maybe one or two clients in total

[09:54] who were frustrated at the drop in quality. But no, I was, but it gave me an opportunity to refocus

[10:00] and I wanted to learn more.

[10:02] I was like, this was a book of business

[10:03] I built through a series of happy accidents.

[10:06] I was challenging the words of wisdom I had heard prior,

[10:09] which was internet leads don't work.

[10:11] You got to smile and dial.

[10:13] And I'm like, we're in 2020, the decade.

[10:16] I don't think that can be true anymore.

[10:18] Oh, well, it's the same time to write a big account

[10:21] to the small account.

[10:22] I also found that really isn't true.

[10:24] Even the service side, a lot of these new carriers

[10:26] or even some of the older carriers,

[10:28] They're developing really good self-service tools. They're developing really good, like, almost a light diet agency management software tools inside their portals. I was like, it's just not, it can't be true. I sat out there with small accounts have value. You're going to get referrals by treating them well, for sure. And it's going to build into a very natural pipeline. And the ones that then make it, who are like, oh, I started on weekends doing lawns.

[10:54] My best success case is he went to be like he had 18 employees.

[10:59] He went from a one man doing on Weekend Warrior while he had a day job and he turned his lawn

[11:03] care company into 18 employees with workers comp, with general liability with auto, the

[11:09] whole kid in caboodle.

[11:10] So yeah, I was like, I think there's opportunity here.

[11:13] And then out of leads that I haven't been able to fully convert just because I haven't

[11:17] been as I've done this on more of the part time side like it.

[11:19] But if I've been just using organic social media leads, I didn't spend a dollar on acquisition.

[11:24] I didn't spend any marketing money. I was already nationally licensed at the producer level. So I got an agency in my home state and a lot of these insure tech carriers, the MGAs kind of let you operate on the producer license level usually. So I was able to write business in several states very affordably. I think my startup budget was $1,000 and I built an agency that had $300,000 of premium and force and was making north of 30, 40, 30 to 40 grand range from nothing on week young.

[11:50] part-time basis for most of it. And then in between a layoff at one point, there were six months where

[11:56] it literally put all the food on my table. It took care of me as a backup because tech had been

[12:01] turbulent in like the 2023 through 2024 range. And it, yeah, so it fed me and kept me alive and paid

[12:09] for me and my wife. And it gave me a lot of freedom and a good safety. And then that I was able to sell

[12:15] it for a decent return. And I had a very fair contract. So I did some consulting in that time

[12:20] at first, and then I started laying the foundation for a new plan moving forward that I'd have

[12:25] a new project that I want to work on.

[12:28] And I've gotten very familiar with a lot of top tier carriers.

[12:31] Can you walk me through sort of what an average day looks like for you?

[12:34] And not what the ideal day is, but really what, you know, going into the nitty gritty

[12:38] details, like what do you typically do?

[12:41] So using social media, using the internet in any capacity, it still uses similar rules

[12:46] as people who run the ad side of it.

[12:48] You're looking at keywords.

[12:50] So like you can look, literally on Facebook, you can go search liability insurance.

[12:54] Now you're going to find personal auto commercial stuff in there.

[12:57] You got to somewhat cultivate your position.

[13:00] I found that personal pages have a resounding success right now for one reason.

[13:05] They're insulated from AI.

[13:07] Certain places more than others, but personal Facebook.

[13:11] Meta's position effectively is if you put a bot in charge of your personal Facebook, they will ban it.

[13:16] And they're very quick at catching it.

[13:18] You would have to spend a lot of time trying to master making that bot appear like it's a person.

[13:24] And even then, I know they catch and they ban a lot of people on that.

[13:27] But no, use it.

[13:28] Search, add people there.

[13:30] It's a very insulated space from it right now.

[13:32] So there's still a lot of organic connection there.

[13:35] And people really, there's a lot of digitally first people.

[13:38] There are people who, like older people and younger.

[13:40] This isn't an age one demographic or the other.

[13:42] People don't want to pick up the phone as much.

[13:44] they're getting spam risk and like auto dialing and all the different things out there that make

[13:49] the phone space slightly worse off we're seeing that online as well but if you can cultivate hey

[13:54] i'm a real person i'm not out of a virtual assistant call center from random country xyz

[14:01] you have a very good ability to build rapport i think it's also being a part of these spaces i used

[14:06] i listened to a lot of gary vayner chuck when i was younger and i definitely know he left an imprint

[14:11] on my social media like approach.

[14:14] He calls it like the two cent strategy.

[14:16] It's very similar.

[14:17] I use the comments.

[14:18] I build rapport in there

[14:19] and I advise people to build rapport in the comments.

[14:22] Don't just ask for a close.

[14:24] Don't just go and sit there and say,

[14:25] oh, buy my insurance.

[14:26] When someone shares something about cats or dogs,

[14:29] be genuine, never lie.

[14:30] Hey, I'm not a pet person, but that's a cute dog.

[14:33] People sharing memes.

[14:34] I've literally, I have gotten a lead by sharing memes about,

[14:39] like I'm not a big person in golf.

[14:41] And like it's a meme about where a bunch of people are like, yep, golf's also got a small office talk jokes, things like that in different groups and places.

[14:49] You want to not just have comments that are give me your money.

[14:52] If they look, especially when you're in groups and you're in groups, you can click on a user and you see all of their interaction in the group particularly.

[15:00] So if you build a genuine rapport, the social engineering logic is they're going to look at and go, oh, he's a real person.

[15:06] He's actually a member of the community.

[15:08] He interacts.

[15:09] He gives advice.

[15:10] That's useful.

[15:11] I'll talk to him. He's not just here to sell me a product.

[15:14] Would you say that the majority of your current clients are from Facebook?

[15:18] Yes, I can easily say the majority of the ones I've sold.

[15:20] I have some other lead sources that I have built into.

[15:23] My referrals have definitely added in random text and random emails

[15:27] for the people who weren't on Facebook

[15:30] or they told their buddy about me in person

[15:32] and then were like, hey, you should use my guy.

[15:34] But no, the hypermajority, when I really do it like a forensic audit,

[15:37] The hyper-majority, I'd say 90% plus, came from other Facebook or other social media sites, at least.

[15:44] So then let's say you're messaging with someone on Facebook and they sort of ask you about homeowners, right?

[15:49] Let's just use one example.

[15:51] What would your sort of process look like where you go to carriers and get quotes?

[15:55] If I have the direct appointment, I'll use a go, just log in, and I'll see if I have a good market for them on direct.

[16:00] I've worked with aggregator networks.

[16:02] As I said, I built them on Agentaro.

[16:03] I work with them as well at a capacity to assist building their network.

[16:07] And you can go to an aggregator, you go to a raider, especially for home and auto, and you can plug in to see if the raider will give you any options for carriers you may not have an appointment with.

[16:17] I think that's one of the nice parts of Agentaro is you can write under their code effectively and it will let you.

[16:23] Buying business, you may not be able to qualify.

[16:25] You may not have the production to sell this policy with the carrier you want, but they might be able to get you set up.

[16:31] Delos, Bamboo in California are really good examples. Very easy to get set up through that

[16:37] process. And then at worst case, I've been clever. I've worked with people on referral. Right now I

[16:42] have a family member's home and auto of travelers through a referral book because I've just been

[16:47] with other around other agents. And I've some agents are very against the referral book side

[16:52] of things. They're like they don't want to ever do that 10 foot pole. Others are. Yeah, you do. We do

[16:57] 50-50 split you can access I got a buddy who will let me access Traveler's personal lines nationwide

[17:02] he has a strong appointment there and I've placed some friends and family in my home state of Georgia

[17:07] because I mainly lean commercial but I was like I want to build this out and then on commercial auto

[17:12] I had some contacts there I'm like I don't have the ability to really go beyond like maybe like

[17:18] Geico progressive the retail side but I was a I got a I think it wasn't a great commission but it

[17:23] It was a giant account, so I was still happy.

[17:25] I got two out of 10% of the take on a large 10-tow truck fleet.

[17:31] This has been my biggest proof that my marketing side works,

[17:34] is that this was a quarter million premium account.

[17:38] I never spoke with him on the phone.

[17:39] I got all the info.

[17:40] I got everything through his personal Facebook.

[17:42] And then I helped place him with a referral partner.

[17:45] And I'm going to get my 2% up front and 2% on renew as a referral partner.

[17:50] Because I was licensed in the state, I got all the stuff.

[17:52] I landed it for him pretty much and did the front work and I was willing to refer it.

[17:56] But as because I'm more on the part time side, yeah, I sometimes have to pass or hand things off.

[18:01] But at the same time, I built a fantastic marketing funnel.

[18:03] It was also part of the reason I sold my first book when I when I scaled.

[18:07] I was like, this kind of came together unexpectedly faster than I expected.

[18:11] But it did the job of proving everything I wanted to.

[18:14] I also had really high expectations of what I thought service needed to look like.

[18:18] And yeah, it's been an interesting journey.

[18:20] I learned I was better.

[18:21] I would have never called myself the outbound prospecting wolf hunter type and say like those

[18:27] sales archetype conversations that companies love to have. Like, are you a hunter? Are you a farmer?

[18:32] Are you like, or do you like to maintain the relation? I was like, I would have always said,

[18:36] I like building rapport with existing. I'm more on the like, I take inbound and then I can do outbound,

[18:42] but it's not my strong suit to owning my own agency and showing that I could go against the

[18:48] like words of wisdom of other people's methods and really just do the way I wanted to.

[18:53] How many carriers do you work with right now? And are there any particular carriers where you're

[18:57] saying like, yeah, I know I will go to this one for this particular risk. Do you have favorites

[19:02] and are you comfortable sharing maybe some of those insights that you have from the work you've

[19:06] done with carriers? Yes, I know several carriers in several markets now because I've had to help

[19:10] work on a rating program on the Agent Taro side. So I've gotten to work with Legacy and then Insure

[19:16] tech on my own side as well. The Coterie as an MGA is a fantastic option. Is paper-wise,

[19:22] are they going to be the best policy in the world? No, but I think who they're selling to,

[19:27] they were never going to buy Hanover or Chubb starting out on weekends. They were never going

[19:31] to buy a traditional legacy carrier product that takes longer to get a quote on that comes out a

[19:38] little bit more expensive because it is a better piece of paper on average than Coterie uses like

[19:43] Spinnaker, Everspan. They'll use some carriers that don't have as big of a brand or as like maybe

[19:49] customized every possible endorsement, like manuscript policy written perfectly. But no,

[19:55] they are a good insurtech carrier for people who, in my opinion, would have had no insurance otherwise.

[20:00] They literally would have just been uninsured. I think they do an exceptional job in new business

[20:05] ventures, in micro, small business. So I have a very strong preference there. I like Next, but as a

[20:11] carrier, they do scare me a little bit because the way their direct consumer works, I'm really

[20:16] worried. Like I found people who say they already have Next and there are people just admitting to

[20:22] insurance fraud on the internet saying, yeah, I use Next and they're not my client. So I can't do

[20:26] much about that really. But I find I really hope they find a way to fix it. Their workers comp is a

[20:31] lot better at catching it. But their general liability, I still know they probably have like

[20:36] a dude owns a rage room and he says he's a wedding venue or a dude owns this and he says he's

[20:41] this online and they can get a policy and they're not getting dropped at renewal they're getting

[20:46] renewed two three four years so i'm hoping they can fix it in the long term because they have great

[20:51] tech and the legacy side i love the hanover yeah they're not the other hanover uh i love hanover

[20:58] it's a fantastic carrier i think their workers comp general uh their workers comp bop or general

[21:04] liability kind of bundles are very competitive and you can get into the nitty-gritty of almost

[21:09] every endorsement with them. Currently structured, they require agency licensing, which was the

[21:15] biggest reason I didn't get to write them as much as I could have. It just has an extra additional

[21:20] cost for every state you want to write them in. You need to be agency licensed was my understanding.

[21:25] So it made this barrier where I got to really get into the deep niche side of them in only a few

[21:31] states but fantastic opportunity a very competitive carrier I've never had the most personal success

[21:39] with them I've heard a lot of good things I've quoted a lot of business with them but it's

[21:43] definitely felt like they they have it feels like they have a second appetite code kind of bear like

[21:48] you learn it by doing it feels very like a guild apprentice like you're just learning by doing you're

[21:54] not going to find a big book of the secret to making it with Chubb but they're a fantastic carrier they

[22:00] They have some great policies.

[22:01] I love their cyber and some of their secondary line products.

[22:04] But it definitely feels like you'll think you know it.

[22:07] And then you'll be like, why did this not work out?

[22:09] Why did this not work out today?

[22:11] And you're just going to slowly learn by doing with them.

[22:14] Berkshire Hathaway is fantastic with almost all their sub carriers and products.

[22:19] Because I've written with Byberk with three.

[22:22] I've written with Breeze.

[22:23] I've worked with Nyko on the broker side.

[22:27] The only thing I will say is I really think on Byberk, they need to let agents know.

[22:33] And with all their lines, I think even with three, they really need to specify up front that they are pickier.

[22:40] They are the right amount of picky.

[22:41] And I respect direct notice of cancellation if they find something like someone's info wasn't accurate or someone gave partial info or you were only quoting what you had.

[22:50] They are the king of accuracy.

[22:51] If you write a risk and the insured tells me something that's wrong, they will find it because they will check everything in post-buy review.

[22:59] Like they will, they've found stuff that no other carrier finds and they will send a direct notice of cancellation out immediately.

[23:07] And then you have to guide them how to fix it.

[23:09] The best example I can think of, a lot of contractors buy a generic website.

[23:13] The generic website maybe says they do something they've never wanted to do.

[23:17] My biggest example are pressure washers who are like, I have a fear of heights.

[23:21] I literally get dizzy the second I step on a ladder. I'm never going up there. They'll write it down.

[23:26] They'll sign an affidavit. They'll do everything. But the random guy they bought a website from on

[23:30] who built a just stock photo brokerage website put roof washing on their website. Berkshire with

[23:36] every carrier will cancel on that because they're hard checking where I know a lot of the competition

[23:41] is not. So that's a double-edged sword. You know for a fact that business is stable and is not going

[23:46] it canceled over anything, but you have to do your due diligence when working with Berkshire.

[23:51] Just so that's with any of them, because I think they have a higher threshold across the board.

[23:56] How do you typically get the quotes? So you mentioned there's a couple of portals you might

[24:01] log in. Do you use any other tools to place the business? Agentero has a commercial radar. It's

[24:06] what I assist on running on the back end. If I have to, I will go with them. I personally prefer

[24:12] because I run a one-man shop situation usually.

[24:15] I personally think as a one-man shop,

[24:18] it's really, it's not possible.

[24:20] It's very hard to keep track of everything you need to be doing

[24:23] and with raters commercially,

[24:26] whether you're with SmartChoice for another aggregator,

[24:28] First Connect, or if they were to ever develop one,

[24:31] or Agentera, or any of the options out there

[24:34] who offer that service.

[24:35] There's a lot of just email communication.

[24:37] You have to be a very organized email checklist,

[24:40] make sure you circle back or connect it to an AMS. I ran a very low tech agency. I ran on an Excel

[24:46] sheet because I didn't like any of the AMSs offered to me when I looked up into a bunch of them. And

[24:52] even now, even with a lot of new tech coming to that field, I still feel like for people who are

[24:57] building a scratch agency, you're buying shoes five sizes too big almost always until you hit

[25:03] like a million premium. I think it's really easy to run an agency with a couple direct appointments

[25:09] see the access to the market you need to on the commercial side and even on the personal

[25:12] side, they're getting better. They're offering light AMS framework in most carriers these

[25:17] days. There's a few you have to manually track. Berkshire, that's another thing I'll say

[25:21] on their end. You have to manually track. They're one of the ones that is not offering that

[25:25] light AMS support. It might go to a completely different section of website. Once you bind,

[25:30] you may not even be able to find it unless you have the name or the policy data to look

[25:35] it up manually, but it's not going to have like a bound policy section to make it easier

[25:39] management.

[25:40] But a lot of the industry I feel has started to go this way where they're giving you light

[25:44] AMS services.

[25:45] So I didn't justify the cost with my first book because I was just like, I don't want

[25:49] to have to like settle for something.

[25:51] I'm going to buy something and then be frustrated and have to do it their way of doing it because

[25:55] it won't let me do it the way I want to manage it.

[25:58] So that was the only reason I personally had more issues with commercial raters.

[26:02] there is still email correspondence that is essential when using a raider. You need to,

[26:07] it's very hard to be a fly-by-night agent. He's just like popping off everything unfocused on sales,

[26:13] only outbound, and then use a raider because you have to be accountable to managing that.

[26:18] And there are systems that make it better for sure. Agent Taro is doing great things there,

[26:22] and it's a great opportunity that I've gotten to play with there. But the number one thing is,

[26:27] like I've seen the other side of that.

[26:30] If you're not an agent who looks at your email that much

[26:32] and audits every email you get,

[26:34] carriers are, some will call you, some won't.

[26:38] And so you can miss things even with direct access.

[26:40] Like it's really easy.

[26:41] You need to be, if you're not that type of person

[26:44] getting other, whether it's an AI email assistant,

[26:48] a virtual assistant, or an actual person,

[26:50] getting to that level where you can pass the service off

[26:52] is very important.

[26:53] If you're not the type of person

[26:55] who can wear all the hats of,

[26:57] Am I good at just prospecting and selling the policy, servicing and then monitoring?

[27:02] There's still a lot of email communication or like, oh, I got one notice and that's it.

[27:07] If I miss it, I missed it.

[27:08] And that's going to lead to problems.

[27:10] So yeah, using a rater is the second and then referral book is the third.

[27:13] So that's my three-way funnel.

[27:15] And if I can't sell it between those three, direct rater, referral.

[27:20] I'll usually throw it to someone still.

[27:23] I've built a good professional network.

[27:24] Even if I don't get paid, I'd still rather...

[27:28] I've gotten an occasional referral from people I've never sold.

[27:32] Yep, because I introduced them to the right person.

[27:35] If I can't help you, but I introduced you to the right person,

[27:37] I'm still going to get a referral from you in theory.

[27:39] So I've tried to just maintain that level of professional, put them first.

[27:44] Is there a thing in your workflow where you're like,

[27:47] hey, if I could wave a magic wand to improve this part,

[27:51] I would love to sort of automate this or maybe make this faster.

[27:55] You know, is there something in particular that comes to mind?

[27:58] If I could truly get an AMS of my dreams,

[28:01] being it does everything at the stage you want it to,

[28:04] it would start at like $10 a month range,

[28:08] and it would be a slider.

[28:10] It would be you can put everything together in a box

[28:12] and you can slowly just turn on more functionality as needed.

[28:16] The problem is all of them want to sell you their set package

[28:19] and their minimum is still more than most agents need for the first half a million premium.

[28:24] I would, if I could build the tool or find it, either way, I would happily be the person to build it or do it long term.

[28:30] An AMS where it just evolves with you.

[28:32] It could start at free even and you just turn on more functionality as you need it and it scales with you as budget.

[28:39] Right now, I find it's the biggest startup cost in scratch agencies usually.

[28:44] It's usually more than your E&O insurance.

[28:46] In some cases, it's more than your licensing.

[28:49] you have upfront cost of if you need to scale licensing quickly, but you can't also, you can't

[28:54] buy them anymore. So it's a large cost. There used to be the AMS structure well before my time where

[29:00] you could buy a software and you just own it. You'd have the disk kind of thing. And we've shifted to

[29:06] that as a service function. This is your biggest expense as a startup agent outside of advertising.

[29:12] And if you're not an ad spend agency, like I did mine organically, nope, this is just my number one

[29:17] cost is how do I keep all this together? I am decent enough with Excel on my own and with the

[29:24] use of AI to assist me in figuring out certain formulas, automations, reminders. I built a small

[29:31] you. I literally got into the process of building my own a little bit just to make my job easier.

[29:37] It shows me a breakdown by state of every single policy I've sold, by renewal date of each month,

[29:43] of which months are my busier months.

[29:45] And this is all done through a spreadsheet right now.

[29:47] It automatically highlights

[29:49] when they're like five days out from renewal,

[29:52] especially the ones that need more.

[29:54] I can flag this one needs like more physical work.

[29:58] Do you use any CRMs or anything like that?

[30:00] I used a couple different ones that I tried

[30:03] and I found once again, CRM and AMS side,

[30:07] it was easier just to build in the small agency.

[30:10] If I when I get to a certain budget in my brain, I kind of set up a mile marker of I either want to have a thousand active policies or I want to be making north of like two million premium enforce. At that point, I would build out there, but I'd be building out for the employee I want to hire more than myself.

[30:29] myself. I don't enjoy how it is how most of these work. And unless I find that perfect program that

[30:36] will literally be anything I want whenever I need it kind of thing, I would eventually I'd probably

[30:41] I did the math in my head. I was like, yeah, I'd go buy like, well, if I go with momentum,

[30:46] it's pricier. They're really nice on their tech package size. But like, I respect the fact that

[30:51] they're efficient, but their price mark is higher. Or I can do Hawksoft. I love that Hawksoft works.

[30:57] I don't know why this has always been the way I describe people.

[30:59] It's a very efficient piece of software.

[31:01] It still reminds me of a public library computer for some reason from like the early 2000s with the drop downs and their UI.

[31:09] I mean that in the nicest way possible.

[31:10] It's efficient.

[31:12] It just it's I will get it if I have an employee I need to make their job easier.

[31:16] But at the agent level, a lot of them, they feel built for the service employee more than for the independent scratch agency founder.

[31:24] and I think that's a consistent problem among all of them so far.

[31:28] But there's some great software, there's some great pieces,

[31:31] they all have great functionality.

[31:33] If there's a personal problem you're finding they can solve, for sure.

[31:36] But I was able to do all of it on a spreadsheet.

[31:39] I never had endorsements get missed.

[31:41] I never had renewals fall through the cracks.

[31:43] The only area I can admit I struggled a little with was following up on leads.

[31:50] I didn't close.

[31:51] but I had enough new volume that I was never sitting there really sweating over. Oh, well,

[31:56] I didn't close him last year. Should I follow up again this year? I always had enough new volume.

[32:01] It never was. It was not that of a matter. Thank you so much for joining the podcast.

[32:06] You're welcome. I'm glad to have given my two cents. I hope it's helpful. I've not tried to

[32:13] interrupt you. I do apologize.